ACDSee Photo Manager 2009

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Rotation problems

(28 posts)
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  • chrisgj6
    Member

    Usually my photos have the exif orientation tag so I tend to not physically rotate them but I've just tried rotating a number of older photos without the orientation data using the icons in the browser window. The thing that irritates me is that acdsee seems to insert "ACD Systems Digital Imaging" in the software field and also changes the date/time field. I see no reason for it to do this. Alternativly i've tried rotating them using "rotate/flip images" in the tools menu. I thought this would solve the problem becuase this explicitly has the option to "preserve metadata" however with this ticked it still seems to do exactly the same thing. Strangely just to see what preserve metadata actual does I ticked it off and to my suprise it then seems to do what i would consider preserving the original metadata ie leaving it untouched. Surely this should work the other way round leaving the metadata untouched when "preserve metadata" is ticked. Do other people have this problem or is it something to do with my copy of the software?

    p.s. Ideally I would just like to insert the orientation tag into photos that are missing it so I don't need to physically rotate them. Is there a way to do this in Photo Manager?

    Posted On October 24, 2008 - 10:50 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • LV_Bill
    Member

    ChrisGJ6 -   Since none of the Moderators have responded to your now 4-day old posting, I thought I'd take a crack at it.  Keep in mind I'm just another user.

    First off, you are dead right about the insertion of the words "ACD Systems Digital Imaging".  A simple Save As will insert those words into EXIF Software field (actually intended to be for the camera's software version).  However, this only happens with JPG's. Do a Save As to PNG or TIF, no problem.  I also verified that when auto-rotate is set on by your camera, and you upload JPG images directly to Photo Manager 2009, that same wording will be inserted. So, unless the developers have one heck of an explanation, I'd say it's a bug in the JPG file saving software./p>

    Your second point was a request for a batch ability to turn the auto-rotate indicator ON in images lacking that setting.  I would love to have this ability, but so far it has eluded me.  I'm going to keep on testing using images from my own camera with auto-rotate turned on and off.  I will post back if I can crack this one.

    Posted On October 29, 2008 - 12:54 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Chippy
    Moderator

    AFAIK, when ever you 'EDIT', and that means rotate, and change any thing to the original image, the software you are using, be it ACDSee, Adobe PS,Corel PSP, etc, will change the EXIF software tag, from the camera software, to whatever editing software you are using.

    Posted On October 29, 2008 - 02:15 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • hop
    Member

    Another problem, same Topic!

    Have problems to rotate my images (manuel or exif).

    Its not rotating them in the preview or the slideshow either.

    Folowing error:

    IMG_0002.JPG : Skipped (no operation applied)
    IMG_0003.JPG : Skipped (no operation applied)

    My settings are:

    • force lossless JPEG operations (tried with and without)
    • remove/replace original files (same same)
    • rename
    • preserve last modified date (no)
    • preserve metadata (yes)
    • preserve database information (yes)

    Any ideas?

     

    Thanks,

    hop.

    Posted On October 29, 2008 - 08:39 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Marc Sabatella
    Moderator

    hop said:

    Have problems to rotate my images (manuel or exif).

    I'm not totally clear on how you are trying to do this.  Selecting a bunch of images from the browser and hitting Batch Rotate/Flip Images (Ctrl-J)?

    IMG_0002.JPG : Skipped (no operation applied)
    IMG_0003.JPG : Skipped (no operation applied)

    I don't suppose these read only, or on read-only media?  Or perhaps the EXIF info has been stripped out?

     

    Posted On October 30, 2008 - 11:39 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • hop
    Member

    how could the EXIF info be striped out?

    they are not read only and the automatik turning doesn't seem to work on pictures just taken of my camera (Canon IXUS 75) either.

    Posted On October 31, 2008 - 11:51 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Marc Sabatella
    Moderator

    hop said:

    how could the EXIF info be striped out?

    Lots of ways.  For instance, the "save for web" command in Photoshop will do this.  As will uploading an image to a number of different photo sharing sites (meaning images downloaded form those sites might lack EXIF).

    they are not read only and the automatik turning doesn't seem to work on pictures just taken of my camera (Canon IXUS 75) either.

    Could you post a sample picture and instructions on how to reproduce the problem?  I'd be happy to try.  Although you should also just submit a support ticket, and they'll probably want to see sample images too.

     

    Posted On October 31, 2008 - 03:00 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • hop
    Member

    OK it seems to work now.

    For some reason one folder contains images without EXIF info. Was taken with the same camera and copied the same way I allways copy my images (windows explorer). Maybe there was a problem before when I turned them with the old ACDSEE (3.x)

    Well thanks anyway. Otherwise a great prog!

    Posted On November 1, 2008 - 11:50 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Marc Sabatella
    Moderator

    hop said:

    For some reason one folder contains images without EXIF info. Was taken with the same camera and copied the same way I allways copy my images (windows explorer). Maybe there was a problem before when I turned them with the old ACDSEE (3.x)

    Actually, this suggests another possibility.  There was a bug that was in Pro 2.5 that might be in PM 2009 too, that caused files transferred over from previous versions to show up without EXIF info.  The info was actually there, but ACDSee couldn't see it.  Only for images that were first cataloged in older versions.  There was a patch posted for Pro 2.5 to fix this, not sure about PM 2009.  but you actually don't *need* the patch: just run "Catalog Files" on your images, and the EXIF info magically reappears.  *If* this is the problem you are seeing - but it seems quite possible.

     

    Posted On November 1, 2008 - 05:51 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • NA
    Inactive

    Chippy said:

    AFAIK, when ever you 'EDIT', and that means rotate, and change any thing to the original image, the software you are using, be it ACDSee, Adobe PS,Corel PSP, etc, will change the EXIF software tag, from the camera software, to whatever editing software you are using.

    Goes for Nikon software too.

    However, Sumnerbi has pointed out, that as far as ACDSee is concerned this only applies for JPEGs. I do RAW processing in Pro 2.5 and the Camera/Software tag is left unaltered, much to my annoyance. I believe the correct term here is inconsistent behaviour.

     

    Posted On November 2, 2008 - 01:23 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • LV_Bill
    Member

    To: Marc Sabatella and other Moderators.

    I would really appreciate some more follow-up on one of the key questions raised by the original poster who said:  "Ideally, I would just like to insert the orientation tag into photos that are missing it so I don't need to physically rotate them". 

    The Rotate/Flip Images Tool simplifies the physical rotation effort but it misses the main point of this question.  The poster (and myself) are looking for a LOSSLESS solution, i.e. a way of "zapping" the auto rotation flag which is missing in an original JPEG image file.  Any suggestions?

    Posted On November 2, 2008 - 04:53 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • hop
    Member

    Marc Sabatella said:

    just run "Catalog Files" on your images, and the EXIF info magically reappears.  *If* this is the problem you are seeing - but it seems quite possible.

     

    Did that and it turned the images (all jpg), but gave me the same error after the rotating prozess. IMG_0003.JPG : Skipped (no operation applied)

    Still turned the pics alright though !?!

    Posted On November 2, 2008 - 05:03 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Marc Sabatella
    Moderator

    Sumnerbi said:

    To: Marc Sabatella and other Moderators.

    I would really appreciate some more follow-up on one of the key questions raised by the original poster who said:  "Ideally, I would just like to insert the orientation tag into photos that are missing it so I don't need to physically rotate them".

    The Rotate/Flip Images Tool simplifies the physical rotation effort but it misses the main point of this question.  The poster (and myself) are looking for a LOSSLESS solution, i.e. a way of "zapping" the auto rotation flag which is missing in an original JPEG image file.  Any suggestions?

    I'm no expert on rotation issues, and it seems several different variants of this question have popped up recently, with different slants.  My understanding is that that there are basically three ways to rotate a JPEG file.  One is not lossless at all - it involves decompressing the file, roating the resulting image data, then recompressing.  I believe this is what happen when you rotate from the viewer.  The second method is lossless and involves a fairly complex algorithm that processes the compressed JPEG data without the need to uncompress/recompress it.  I would imagine this is what the Batch Rotate / Flip Images facility does when accessed from the browser - in other words, my understanding is that *is* a lossless operation.  But unfortunately it doesn't work on RAW files.  The third method, and the only one that works for RAW files, is to simply set the EXIF orientation field to incidate the proper orientation, which will cause all reasonably intelligent applications to rotate the image upon displaying it.  It sounds like this is what you are asking for, although unless I'm missing something, the second method should be fine for your purposes, too.

    Anyhow, when I used a camera that lacked the ability to set the orientation field itself, I used ExifTool to set it.  I installed it as an external editor in ACDSee under three names "Orient Left", "Orient Right", and "Orient Normal" - which would run ExifTool with the proper options to set the orientation field accordingly.

    Here's a pointer to a thread where I gave more specifics:

    http://community.acdsee.com/forums/topic/using-exiftool

     

    Posted On November 3, 2008 - 05:08 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Marc Sabatella
    Moderator

    chrisgj6 said:

    The thing that irritates me is that acdsee seems to insert "ACD Systems Digital Imaging" in the software field and also changes the date/time field. I see no reason for it to do this.

    Which date/time filed is changed?  If you mean, the file modified date/time, then of course that is being changed, since you *are* modifying the file.  If you want to access the time the image was taken, you shouldn't be using file modified date, but rather, EXIF Date/TIme Original.  Now, if ACDSee is changing *that*, then this would be an issue.  Anyhow, if you want to preserve the file-modified date, you'll note there is a separate checkbox for that.  Although you should be aware that in the opinion of many people (including me), it really isn't good practice to lie to Windows about when you've last modified a file.  If nothing else, it's likely to mess up backup algorithms, but could also adversely affect fragmentation algorithms, disk caching algoirthms, etc.  I'm not saying your machine will crash instantly if you try it, just that you really should have a very good reason for it and know what you are doing and what the risks are.  Preserving the file-modified date just to maintain a record of when the picture was taken is simply not necessary - that's what EXIF Date/Time Original is for.

    Strangely just to see what preserve metadata actual does I ticked it off and to my suprise it then seems to do what i would consider preserving the original metadata ie leaving it untouched.

    Preserve metadata means that the EXIF and IPTC info is retained when making a new copy of a file.  It has nothing to do with file-modified date.  This option is more meaningful when using options to create new copies of the file, to control whether the new copies inherit the EXIF and IPTC information of the original.

     

    Posted On November 3, 2008 - 05:17 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • LV_Bill
    Member

    my understanding is that it *is* a lossless operation

    Marc -   Could you try and confirm (100%) that Batch Rotate/Flip Images is really lossless.  If you're correct, that would be a terrific feature.

    Thanks, Bill

    Posted On November 3, 2008 - 06:14 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • chrisgj6
    Member

    Hi Marc

    Thanks for the tip on using ExifTool I might give that a try.

    Marc Sabatella said:

    it really isn't good practice to lie to Windows about when you've last modified a file.  If nothing else, it's likely to mess up backup algorithms, but could also adversely affect fragmentation algorithms, disk caching algoirthms, etc.

    I completely agree with about the risks of leaving the "file" modified date unchanged but as far as I'm aware the date/time field in the camera section of the exif data is completely separate. The file modification date itself I'm happy to update so windows know the last time the file was modified for purposes of backup etc. This is why I leave the "preserve file-modified date" unchecked. Surely windows uses the same file modified date information it uses for any other file? The date/time exif field won't be used in file operations will it?

    Marc Sabatella said:

    Preserve metadata means that the EXIF and IPTC info is retained when making a new copy of a file.  It has nothing to do with file-modified date.  This option is more meaningful when using options to create new copies of the file, to control whether the new copies inherit the EXIF and IPTC information of the original.

    You're telling me the "preserve metadata" checkbox in the "batch rotate/flip images options" dialog has nothing to do with rotation? It is obviously designed to allow you to preserve metadata when an image is rotated. My point was that it seems to be working in reverse. Preserving metadata completely (identical to an unrotated duplicate)  when its unchecked and slightly altering it (date/time, software) when it is.

     

    Posted On November 3, 2008 - 06:37 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Sam Dring
    Moderator

    Just did a test with a clean jpeg with the following results:

    1.  Pre any rotation

    Attached Image:

    2.  Then did batch rotate with all 3 of the 'Preserves' checked with following result;

    Attached Image:

    It can be seen that Camera Date time is changed but then if I uncheck preserve metadata (in order to put my rotated image back to normal) the Camera Date time remains as previously, i.e. is NOT altered.

    Strange indeed

    Attached Files

    1. 2008-11-03_194029.jpg
    2. 2008-11-03_194146.jpg
    Posted On November 3, 2008 - 07:53 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • moongate
    Moderator

    Are you guys sure that the date you are talking about that changes is not the "file last time modified" date?

    Just a guess...

    Moongate

    Posted On November 3, 2008 - 10:58 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Sam Dring
    Moderator

    Are you guys sure that the date you are talking about that changes is not the "file last time modified" date?

    See my post one above where the camera date time was altered but with Preserve acting in opposition to expectations.

    Posted On November 4, 2008 - 08:26 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • moongate
    Moderator

    Sam Dring said:

    Are you guys sure that the date you are talking about that changes is not the "file last time modified" date?

    See my post one above where the camera date time was altered but with Preserve acting in opposition to expectations.

    Ah ok sorry, seemed to have scrolled over it.

    Moongate

    Posted On November 4, 2008 - 08:50 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

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