ACDSee Pro 2 and 2.5

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Color management has problems

(13 posts)
  • Started by noam
  • Started on October 18, 2008 - 08:54 AM (1 year ago)
  • Latest reply from markr (8 months ago)

  • noam
    Focus Group

    Hi all, 1st post here :)

    I would like to report two problems with color management in Pro 2.5 (possibly also in 2.0, didn't check).

    1. ICC compatibility problem and inconsistency between thumbnails and previews (even when checking the option to applyl color management on both). Download the test images from color.org (The official ICC consortium website) and see for yourself. There are 4 test images there, using both ICC v2 and ICC v4 profiles. Some look fine in the thumbnail but screwed up in the preview, and some vice versa. Very puzzling...

    2. Color working space feature bug. Whenever I choose a working space in the color tab (RAW processing), and afterwards try to save or export as JPEG, the only option to embed an output color space in the JPEG file is the working space chosen earlier. In other words, there is a mixup between working space and output space. This makes the whole working space idea useless. Ideally, one would choose them independently from each other, for example, processing color in Wide Gamut RGB or ProPhoto RGB, and then rendering a JPEG file with sRGB for slideshows and web. But this is not how it works right now, which is a real pitty, if not a showstopper.

    Does anyone else suffer these symptoms? I hope ACDSee developers sort this out quickly. It doesn't look like a complicated bug.

    Cheers,

    Noam

    Posted On October 18, 2008 - 08:54 AM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • acdsee.windweit
    Member

    Yes, I share problem number one (Can't tell about number two since sony alpha350 raw format isn't supported by ACDsee yet).

    I tested an image that has an embedded color spin profile (available at "http://www.fc-prints.de/fileadmin/daten/farbkreis.jpg"). The thumbnail (in this case shown correctly) differs from the preview and from the full image (applying the wrong colors).
    I've attached my color management options.

    The funny thing is: when I switch options while the full image is showing in the background, sometimes the color spin profile is applied. When I switch to another image and return, the color spin profile is ignored once again.

    A bug fix would be really appreciated.

    Gabi

    Attached Files

    1. color management acdsee.JPG
    Posted On October 18, 2008 - 02:45 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • moongate
    Moderator

    Hello Noam,

    I would like to reproduce but I don't find what you are describing on the color.org website.

    I see all kinds of icc profiles and tools but nor testimages. What do I need to follow your instructions?

    Moongate

    Posted On October 18, 2008 - 02:57 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • noam
    Focus Group

    I can't provide a direct link because the site is scripted, but it's easy to locate:

    @moongate:

    In the homepage, choose "Is your system v4-ready? " from the menu on the right. Then, links to both html and pdf test pages are provided. Go to the html test page. You'll see an image that is actually comprised of 4 images. Simply download the 4 images using your browser's "Save image as..." or equivalent right-click command (Read the text. It explains everything).

    Cheers,

    Noam

    Posted On October 18, 2008 - 03:52 PM (1 year ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • noam
    Focus Group

    bump + update:

    Well, 2 months has passed and no response or update..

    In spite of the lack of response, I will provide some updated information. In my original post I was using a winXP machine. Since then I upgraded to a new PC running Vista 32bit SP1. BTW, still getting a l o t of crashes but that's off-topic. Of course, I'm running the latest 2.5 build.

    Problem 1 seems to have disappeared. The ICC test image files look fine in both thumbs and previews.

     

    Problem 2 (which is a critical one) is still here. As I think about it more, I'm beginning to speculate that this is not a bug but rather a serious oversighted limitation (Am I wrong?): ACDSee provides the choice of a working space, but doesn't convert it later to any output space when saving to JPEG. Again, this defeats much of the whole idea of color management. There are many good reasons to choose a wider or different space than the input space. Wider gamuts allow for more manipulation space before saturation. Using sRGB (which is very small) while processing can lose many fine image details, nuances, and smooth gradients.

    To put it shortly, independent input, working, and output color spaces is both essential and default in virtually all serious photo software. ACDSee currently doesn't have it (or is simply bugged) and it's a real shame. Luckily, this bug or limitation is a very easy to fix!

    I hope you address this issue promptly. Please update me and the other users on your progress.

     

    Best reagrds

     

    Noam

    Posted On January 1, 2009 - 04:42 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • NA
    Inactive

    I trust that you are aware of the existence of this dialog in the Tools menu:

    Attached Image:

    Attached Files

    1. Batch Color Profile.JPG
    Posted On January 1, 2009 - 06:27 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • Paul Silk
    Member

    I agree with noam, it is a very poor implementation as a raw image does not have a defined color space untill you convert and export it, but in ACDsee you have to make the choice before processing and convesion unlike every other raw converter where you can stipulate the color space when you export regardless of the working colour space.

    As to the batch convert profile, it is a little less than useless as when you are using jpeg you are having to recompress the image twice!

    I'll give you a good example of how useless this is.

    Say i have my full size finished images in Adobe rgb color space and jpeg format and I wish to batch resize them for the web, as anyone knows they will need to be converted to srgb for web veiwing. So now I have to batch convert them to the srgb profile and apply jpeg comression again. Now I have to batch resize them and once again apply a jpeg compression!

    I mean honestly ..having to carry out two seperate conversions each one involving more compression really sucks, why oh why cannot convert profile be in the batch process feature when I am resizing and save this undue work and having to keep applying jpeg compression.

    I have to admit if ACDSee did a color managed version without the raw editor I would be very happy as I love it as a photomanager but hate it as a editor/raw converter.

    Posted On January 2, 2009 - 03:50 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • noam
    Focus Group

    @Imogens: I am talking about the color management during RAW processing and later rendering to JPEG. The Color Profile Batch Convert is irrelevant to this issue, as it is meant for transforming the colors of rendered image files (JPEG, TIFF, etc.) as opposed to RAW files which have no ICC color profile associated with them.

    To clarify the matter, let's review the life-cycle of an image from RAW to final image in a proper color managed flow:

    1. The RAW image file is loaded by the program (in RAW Processing mode). It interprets the colors using some default values or a camera ICC input profile if available (software-dependent).
    2. The RAW processing program transforms the values from the input space to a working space. All RAW manipulations (i.e., exposure, contrast, light EQ, saturation etc. in case of ACDSee) are done in this space.
      Some programs actually use several different working spaces for different steps (For example, RAW Therapee performs some manipulations in LAB space and others in the user-chosen working space). I'm not familiar with ACDSee's internals so I don't know what exactly is done, but for the sake of simplicity of our discussion, let's assume that all RAW processing manipulations are done in the chosen working space.
    3. When exporting the image to JPEG (or some other output format), the program transforms the color values from the working space to the desired output space (e.g., sRGB for web, or a vendor-provided ICC profile specific to the target printer). Similarly, the preview image on our monitor is also the result of transforming the image from the working space to our monitor ICC profile (or, commonly, generic sRGB).

     

    Now, the broken functionality in ACDSee is step 3. If I choose a working space during RAW Processing (Color tab), i.e. step 2, then when I try to "Save As" a JPEG, I only have a choice of embedding the WORKING color space in the JPEG, instead of being able to choose my prefered output color space and have ACDSee transform the image colors while creating the JPEG file.

    Here are screenshots that demonstrate the problem. I emphasized the relevant stuff with red rectangles. The first screenshot was taken during RAW Processing (Color tab). The second screenshot is of the "Save As" dialog from within the RAW Processing mode. As you can see, the embedded color space field is read-only . I cannot select a different color space to embed in the JPEG file. ACDSee simply doesn't offer any color-space transformation during export. That's the heart of the problem.

    Attached Files

    1. raw processing color.jpg
    2. raw processing save as.jpg
    Posted On January 2, 2009 - 06:58 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • NA
    Inactive

    I thought that RAW -(save as)-> TIFF -(Batch convert ICC..)-> whatever format might provide a workaround. If this is not the case, I agree there is a problem at hand.

    I must admit that I don't do raw conversion in Pro 2.5 as there are better converters. Look for instance at evenly colored areas like skies - are rendered very blotchy by the Pro 2.5 converter.

    Hope you will soon be able to produce the image files you need, one way or the other.

    Cheers,

    Posted On January 2, 2009 - 09:34 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • noam
    Focus Group

    Imogens, thanks for the idea. I thought about it, too, but I consider it way too cumbersome. It could work maybe for single files now and then, but not if I like to use a custom working space every time (which is a natural in every other program).

    I hope ACDSee devs do something about it soon.

    P.S. I actually like to use ACDSee's RAW processing because of the convenience of using one program for the whole flow, and my preference of non-destructive editing. I do like the results, especially from the brilliant Light-EQ. But I'm drifting off-topic. Let's keep this thread focus on the color problem.

    Noam

    Posted On January 3, 2009 - 07:00 AM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • antoinebrisebard
    Member

    noam said:1. ICC compatibility problem and inconsistency between thumbnails and previews (even when checking the option to applyl color management on both).

    Hi there, do have still that problem: thumbs look terrible warm and reddish; in view window picture looks as it should look. Regards - Antoine

    /edit: I should give more info: the movieposterpics are 16bit-tifs, zip-compressed, deriving from lightroom, only white balanced with little shadow/highlight-correction.

    using build 358 on xp pro.

     

     

    Attached Image:

    Attached Image:

    Attached Files

    1. view.jpg
    2. thumbs.jpg
    Posted On January 7, 2009 - 12:40 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • noam
    Focus Group

    Regarding Problem 1 (wrong color profile in preview and\or thumbnail), here is a direct link to the official test images by the ICC organization (moongate asked for it above):

    http://color.org/version4html.xalter

    For me, the problem disappeared when I upgraded from XP to Vista, so it's probably specific to XP (and possibly XP's fault. Evidently, Microsoft updated the color management engine in Vista).

    Problem 2 (the more important one!) still awaits a response/solution though...

    Noam

    Posted On January 18, 2009 - 12:52 PM (10 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

  • markr
    Member

    I am new user to ACD See Pro.  I am in evaluation mode (deciding on the value/where the product works/does not work).  Build 363.

    I am having all kinds of "interesting" items around color management.  I have played with as many settings as possible and have found what seems to work well.  Here are a few of the issues:

    If I take a RAW image and convert with Pro 2.5 to a color space like sRGB or Adobe it is fine (TIFF).  If I use Canon DPP to create the TIFF from RAW in AdobeRGB color space then it is all washed out in Pro 2.5.  (Makes no sense.)

    Also, if I use Pro 2.5 to convert the TIFF to sRGB when finished using the Batch ICC Profile the conversion is not as good if I use Photoshop CS2.  It seems to loose much fidelity.  Both conversions are using Perceptual.

     

    Mark

     

    Posted On February 26, 2009 - 05:18 AM (8 months ago) (Permalink to this post)

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