ACDSee Pro 3

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Auto creation of original nd developed folders

(26 posts)

Started by candidstories
Started on October 30, 2009 - 05:24 PM (3 weeks ago)
Latest reply from Marc Sabatella (12 hours ago)

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candidstories
Member

For the most part the program has some new enhancements we like but the automatic creation of originals folders and developed folders is causing a great deal of trouble, we can't turn it off and it is now starting to cause issues in that drive space is being gobbled up to the tune of 50 to 100 gig a day. We will either need to stop the creation or discontinue the use. Any options here??? I would most don't even realize it is happening since it is being hidden.

Posted On October 30, 2009 - 05:24 PM (3 weeks ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

The extraordinarily powerful new Develop mode requires the use of Originals folders for JPEG's in order to operate - non-destructive editing by definition require preservation of the originals. It would in theory be possible to turn off the originals for Edit mode, and that's bee a commonly requested enhancement, so hopefully it will be made. I wonder, though, what you are doing that causes 50-100GB of these to get creating in a single day? If this the result of batch editing operations, you could streamline the process by turning off the saved originals for batch operations via tools->options->file management.

As for the Developed folders, that's just for RAW, and it's purely a speed enhancement. Note that the equivalent of Develop mode in older versions (RAW Processing) also created preview files; it just did so in a centralized location rather than in subfolders under the main folders. There are advantages and disadvantages to both approaches, but one advantage of the approach used in Pro 3 is that you can if you wish simply delete the Developed folders and/or their contents at any time if you wish to save disk space. I've considered doing that to each day's image after I finish my main processing of them and before archiving them. But I find in my usage, it only costs about 20% in additional disk space to leave them, so I haven't started doing that yet. I might at some point, though.

Posted On November 2, 2009 - 05:40 PM (2 weeks ago) (Permalink to this post)
Thorsten_de
Member

Hello together!

I like to disable the the Original and Develop folder too!

I and my Family use ACDSee Pro 3.0 with different User Account's and we never work with Original files.

But now ACDSee create hidden Folders in all Directory's there User edit Photos Edit.

Best regards, Thorsten!

Posted On November 5, 2009 - 02:47 PM (2 weeks ago) (Permalink to this post)
Steku
Member

Hello,

i don't like the creation of original and develop folders too!!

Please give us a option to turn it off!!

regards

Posted On November 5, 2009 - 03:26 PM (2 weeks ago) (Permalink to this post)
stragr
Member

Hello,

Yes this is something very important. After every change , in every folder , one "Original" folder is created. If in one day we use 100-200 folders why shall we must have 100-200 new empty folders. The PRO version should have think to have the possibility to disable 100 of creation this folder or delete it automatically.

Posted On November 6, 2009 - 12:42 PM (2 weeks ago) (Permalink to this post)
Thorsten_de
Member

Hello!

Up to ACDSee allow to disable the Original & Develop folder creation I'm back to ACDSee Pro 2.5!

I hope they will change it soon.

Best regards, Thorsten :-)

Posted On November 7, 2009 - 12:08 AM (2 weeks ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

stragr said:

Yes this is something very important. After every change , in every folder , one "Original" folder is created. If in one day we use 100-200 folders why shall we must have 100-200 new empty folders. The PRO version should have think to have the possibility to disable 100 of creation this folder or delete it automatically.

I don't understand. Those folders shouldn't be empty - they are only created when actually editing your files. And in that case, they aren't empty - they contain the original version of your files. This is absolutely necessary in order to implement the non-destructive editing capabilities that are the whole reason for the existence of Pro 3 - you cannot have non-destructive editing without the saving of originals.

So while I agree if you wish don't wish to take advantage of the most powerful new feature in this - or perhaps *any* - version of ACDSee, it should be possible to turn it off, and I hope they add this. But I think people asking for this should try actually using and taking advantage of nondestructive editing before asking for an option that would prevent them from using this incredible new feature. It is a whole new new world of editing, and once you experience it, I doubt you'd ever want to go back. Any more than you'd want to go back to the days of computers before graphical user interfaces (eg, when everything was done from the DOS command line), or to the days of punch cards. It's that revolutionary a step forward.

Posted On November 7, 2009 - 06:07 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Thorsten_de
Member

Hi Marc!

Up to the users workflow it is necesary or not to create Original and Develop folders!

In my workflow are the Original and Develop folders not necesary.

My camera is a Nikon and I use only the RAW (.nef) files.

First I download the Photos with the Nikon Transfer, this make a backup from my RAW's too.

Next step is to rename the Photos with ACDSee Pro.

Next step is edit the RAW's with Nikon Capture NX2.

The Last step is a batch convert in JPG Full size Adobe RGB, 1200pix sRGB, 600pix sRGB.

For me is the ACDSee Pro 3.0 a small Editor and a fast picture Viewer.

So you see every user has a differnt workflow.

Best regards, Thorsten :-)

Posted On November 7, 2009 - 07:03 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

Thorsten_de said:

Hi Marc!

Up to the users workflow it is necesary or not to create Original and Develop folders!

In my workflow are the Original and Develop folders not necesary.

My camera is a Nikon and I use only the RAW (.nef) files.

First I download the Photos with the Nikon Transfer, this make a backup from my RAW's too.

Next step is to rename the Photos with ACDSee Pro.

Next step is edit the RAW's with Nikon Capture NX2.

The Last step is a batch convert in JPG Full size Adobe RGB, 1200pix sRGB, 600pix sRGB.

OK, but if you follow those steps, you shouldn't be getting any Originals or Developed folders at all. Are you saying you *are* getting thse? Do you know at what point they start appearing? The new folders should only appear if you actually use the features that require them. So that's why I am confused.

Posted On November 7, 2009 - 09:19 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Thorsten_de
Member

Hi Marc!

After the last step the photos are in 3 versions for use on the server.

This photos my family use for different use and they make some changes but it's not necesary to keep a previus version.

If they like an previous version I create it new from the original RAW file.

Best regards, Thorsten :-)

Posted On November 7, 2009 - 10:43 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

OK, so I think you're saying that following those steps doesn't directly lead to the extra files, but that if you *then* edit files, you get the extra files, and this is unnecessary, because the files being edited can be regenerated from the originals just as easily. That's actually not too dissimilar from how things work for me, as I generate "proofs" (medium resolution JPEG files) from my RAW files and use those for most casual purposes (uploading to the web, making 4x6" prints, etc), and if I decide I want to further tweak one of those, I don't really need the "original" proof saved, since I could regenerate it from the RAW. On the other hand, those RAW files are on an external disk that is not normally connected, so I do kind of appreciate the ease with which I can revert to the "original" proof in Pro 3. Plus I don't edit those proofs very often, because for the most part, I'll have already gotten the RAW images looking pretty good before generating those proofs.

Anyhow, once again, as I've said, I do appreciate why the ability to turn off the saving of originals *can* be useful thing for certain workflows. In another thread, as a result of quite a few discussions with other fellow users on these forums, I outlined a proposal for addressing most of the concerns that have been raised with how the new non-destructive processing features work. One of most important things on that list was allowing the saved originals to be turned off. I have confidence that these suggestions will be taken seriously.

Posted On November 8, 2009 - 06:59 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Steku
Member

So it would be very nice to have the opportunity to decide. I don't need the originals folders. I knew what i'm doing with my pictures. I don't need that ACDSee is thinking for me. Why i must by force lucky in the way ACDSee wanted.

Posted On November 9, 2009 - 08:58 AM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
ChaosMen
Member

I too am a little irritated by the empty Originals folders. I don't normally see it, as it is a hidden folder, but when I upload folders of resized thumbnails or photos, my FTP program sees the hidden folder and if I am uploading a root folder, the Originals folder gets uploaded too...spreading the Original folders everywhere I go.

So now I have to go Windows Explorere and delete this Originals folders everytime I do a batch edit.

I did deselect "dont save originals" but the hidden folder is like a residue that stays.

On top of that, the directory I do all my editing is a shared folder. Win 7 now asks me to confirm "Do I really want to delete this shared folder?" So another step I have to do. I am deleting the folder via Windows Explorer so I know its not a confirmation inside of ACDSee 3. Actually cant even see the Originals folder in the Manage view.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this verison. I love being able to create a toolbar that allows me to sort instantly bu Image Orientation or by Rating, Batch Edit...it has streamlined my work flow immensely!

This just feels like a bug to me. If you go into options then FIle Management, and Unclick Save Originals that should take care of the problem. In 2.5 it didnt leave this empty folder behind, but apparently in version 3, it is there, but empty.

So I just wanted to add my voice that this seems more "bug" like rather than a feature that doesn't work for everyone's workflow.

Bry

Posted On November 9, 2009 - 10:15 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

ChaosMen said:

I too am a little irritated by the empty Originals folders. I don't normally see it, as it is a hidden folder, but when I upload folders of resized thumbnails or photos, my FTP program sees the hidden folder and if I am uploading a root folder, the Originals folder gets uploaded too...spreading the Original folders everywhere I go.

I'm still confused as to how you are ever getting empty Originals folders. As i described above, that folder should only be created when you actually edit a file, and in that case, it won't be empty. Can you describe a specific series of steps that leads to an empty Originals folder? I suppose if you made edit to a bunch of files, then ran Restore Originals on all of the files>

I did deselect "dont save originals" but the hidden folder is like a residue that stays.

Also, that option is only for batch operations.

This just feels like a bug to me.

I'd say if you are ever getting empty Originals folders, that does sound like a bug - your Originals folder should contain your originals!

But as I tried to explain before, I do think people are misunderstanding the value of the saved originals. This features allows develop mode to do things you could not begin to even hope to accomplish in any other way. For example, batch applying a WB change to a group of files, then go to each one individually and tweak exposure. Then batch apply a NR setting to half of them. then go into another, do a custom curves adjustment, then copy that setting (and that setting only) to a group of other files. Then change your mind about the WB and change that for all the files, laving all other settings intact. it's an *incredibly* powerful feature that is, again, absolutely impossible to even come close to emulating just by saving your own copies of the files you edit!

So once more, I do agree it would be a nice enhancement to be able to disable this feature on occasion or for very specific workflows like Thorsten's - but I would encourage people who are surprised by this feature to actually try it out and see just how amazingly powerful it is, before wishing too hard for an option that would disallow you from using it!

Posted On November 11, 2009 - 10:14 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
midwest
Member

First, I would like to say that I like ACDSee 3.0 VERY much. I also appreciate the non-destructive processing of jpegs, but I do not like how it is implemented. Moving my original file is less than desirable.

Why not put the processed files in a [Developed] or other folder, kind of like happens when working with a raw file. Thus keeping the originals where I determine they should be.

Again, keep my originals where I put them. If ACDSee creates a folder for "Modified/Processed/Developed" files, I am ok with that. For me the problem is how this feature was impemented, not that it exists. If there is a logical reason why this cannot be done or if I am missing something, I would appreciate knowing.

I apologize if this has been brought up, but I missed it.

Posted On November 11, 2009 - 11:30 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

midwest said:

First, I would like to say that I like ACDSee 3.0 VERY much. I also appreciate the non-destructive processing of jpegs, but I do not like how it is implemented. Moving my original file is less than desirable.

Why not put the processed files in a [Developed] or other folder, kind of like happens when working with a raw file. Thus keeping the originals where I determine they should be.

If you browse previous discussions on this topic, you'll see some support for this view. No doubt, some people would prefer that behavior. But the downside is a drag, too: it means that after editing a file, no other program will see the changes you made. This has been a *very* unpopular aspect of some other non-destructive editors that do work this way, so I think ACD decided the way they chose was the lesser of the two evils. You can't please everyone in a decision like that, unfortunately. Personally, I can't see that it really matters to me - I'd adjust my workflow as necessary.

Posted On November 13, 2009 - 10:58 PM (1 week ago) (Permalink to this post)
jabbo
Member

Everybody has a different way to organize files. For example, it boggles my mind that there are people using windows that would load programs into a directory called c:\Program Files\Software company name\Program Name\Version number etc - yet I guess there are people that think it's the most efficient way to organize their program file folders. Fortunately, Windows allows us to load programs where we want - such as in C:\Program Name.

That ACDsee, one of the most intuitive programs out there for viewing and managing photos, would put this strange, unintuitive and unwanted feature into the program and not have a way to turn it off is incredible. I guess I'll have to use ACDsee for organizing, but go back to Adobe Photoshop to do all my editing until ACDsee fixes this. Amazing.

Posted On November 15, 2009 - 07:25 PM (5 days ago) (Permalink to this post)
midwest
Member

Thanks for the reply Mark and I appreciate your insight. I agree, you can't please everyone. I just hope ACDSee is listening - I bet they can do better, evident by improvements made over previous versions.

I'm not sure most users understand what is happening with their original jpegs. I consider the location I place my originals as a vault. - I always know where my originals are.

Marc Sabatella said:

But the downside is a drag, too: it means that after editing a file, no other program will see the changes you made.

In 3.0, if you set your preferences to reveal these hidden folders, it does not make it so for other programs. So, when using another application (as you point out) I don't know if I'm working with an original or processed file (without additional work). Am I missing something?

If a user decides to discontinue use of ACDSee and use another image manager/editor, what then?

I hope ACDSee takes another look at how this is implemented and decides to provide options in the future.

Posted On November 15, 2009 - 10:59 PM (5 days ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

jabbo said:

That ACDsee, one of the most intuitive programs out there for viewing and managing photos, would put this strange, unintuitive and unwanted feature into the program and not have a way to turn it off is incredible. I guess I'll have to use ACDsee for organizing, but go back to Adobe Photoshop to do all my editing until ACDsee fixes this.

Yes, you are welcome to go back to the old and much less efficient way of editing images by using Elements. And as I have said several times now, I do hope ACD listens to this request to allows to continue to use the old and much less effecient method with ACDSee, too. I totally support that request. But I do wish you'd at least try exploring the amazing power of develop mode before writing it off as "strange, unintuitive, and unwanted". You're missing out on the single most important advance in image editing that has occurred in the last decade. It is *really* worth the effort to give it a shot.

Posted On November 16, 2009 - 05:09 PM (4 days ago) (Permalink to this post)
Marc Sabatella
Moderator

midwest said:

In 3.0, if you set your preferences to reveal these hidden folders, it does not make it so for other programs. So, when using another application (as you point out) I don't know if I'm working with an original or processed file (without additional work). Am I missing something?

The idea is that if you access the file in the main folder, you are always accessing the *most current* version. That's either the original if you haven't edited it, or the edited version if you have.

In other words, it's *exactly* like what would have happened if you used an ordinary "destructive" editor like Elements or older versions of ACDSee or whatever - when you loaded your original, edited, and hit Save, your original would have been overwritten - gone forever - and replaced by the edited version. Leaving with a folder full of your most current versions of your files - a mixture of originals (for files you hadn't edited) and edited versions. So the point was to make Develop work work as close to exactly like the way old-fashioned editors have always worked, while still providing all the amazing non-destructive capabilities as well.

The alternate storage method you suggest, where ACDSee leaves your original in place, means that when you make changes in Develop mode, those changes are *not* visible to other programs - if they are saved at all, it would be in some mysterious place you wouldn't be able to find it. That's the way Picasa and Lightroom chose to do it. If you edit a file in one of those two programs, then go to look at the file using another program, that other program won't be able to see the changes you made in LR or Picasa. LR and Picasa require you to take the additional and very non-obvious step of doing an explicit "export" of your file after editing in order to make a separate copy of it containing your changes if you want to make it visible. This proved to be enormously confusing to lots of people, and I think at some point Picasa altered their implementation in response to that confusion (although I don't know the current status - I haven't kept up with it). So as I say, neither approach is ideal, and would have made some people unhappy. I personally think ACDSee made the right choice here - fewer people will be as surprised and inconvenienced by the model they chose than would have been had they chosen the other model where you need to to do explicit "export" operations in order for any other application to see your edits.

I consider the location I place my originals as a vault. - I always know where my originals are.

OK, but then, I asssume you never edited those files. Presumably you either copied the whole folder and edited those copies, or else you always did a "Save As" when editing, to avoid overwriting the original. Well, the former approach - copying the whole folder - still works just fine with Develop mode - make your copy of the whole folder, archive the originals, and work directly on the copies. The latter approach - doing Save As to avoid overwriting the original - is not compatible with the idea of non-destructive editing. Consider the advantages I described above - being able to copy settings from file to file, being able to batch apply settings to groups of files, etc. This type of approach only makes sense if you are doing your edits in place - not saving under new names. That is, if you want to take advantage of the absolutely incredible advantages of non-destructive "parametric" image editing a la Develop mode, you have to give up on Save As and do your editing in place. So it's going to be a change to your workflow whether ACDSee uses the model it does now, or whether it switches to the model that experience proves people have hated about the other applications that do this.

For me personally, I'd just accept my originals being moved - what difference does it really make where they are, as long as ACDSee can find them and they get backed up correctly (both of which are true)? But the alternative of cloning the folder is certainly available, too.

If a user decides to discontinue use of ACDSee and use another image manager/editor, what then?

Right, as I've said over and over and over on this forum, I do hope that ACDSee does provide an option to use the older and much more inefficient way of editing, for the benefit of people who would prefer not to adjust to Develop mode. I am *not* suggestion that ACD not provide this option - again, I hope they do. I just hope that people requesting the option really do give Develop mode a chance, as I am absolutely 100% convince that once they come to appreciate how incredibly powerful it is, most won't want to go back to the older and less efficient way of doing things.

Posted On November 16, 2009 - 05:36 PM (4 days ago) (Permalink to this post)